JUSTICE 101

MaineMan · Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:17 am Michael Moore gets riled.

This I why I love the internet. I saw the last few minutes of this on CNN earlier tonight but missed most of it. Well now the whole thing is up on the net for all of us to see.

I won’t rant about Michael Moore myself; I think people here know by now how I feel about his despicable propaganda masquerading as fact--I find the man utterly disgusting in every conceivable way. What cracked me up about this entire segment is how riled Moore is over reports (unfortunately the report that aired prior to this interview is not part of this clip) that his film "Sicko" may not be totally accurate. Wow, what a shock! Moore is fudging facts and spewing half-truths?? Who knew?? :roll: Well apparently he’s the last to know because he’s quite testy in this interview.

So now propaganda-man is lecturing CNN about being factual?? Too fucking funny. Btw, Moore only pulls this crap with ultra mild-mannered newsmen like Blitzer. Check what Lou Dobbs says about Moore just as the clip ends, lol!

http://www.breitbart.tv/html/2823.html

homerskid · Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:45 pm

Michael himself is a "SICKO"...what a rant,eh?

This guy refuses to be taped because he knows taped interviews can be edited to fit an agena,,he should know,he has done it many times.

And a statement about a $15 office visit to the doctor...WTF has he been,hiding under a rock I guess.

My last office visit cost $110 dollars.

My doctor now charges according to how much time he spends with you.
Sorta like the lawyers do.

But it starts out at a $80 MINIMUM.

Moore actually shot himself in the foot calling Medicare ,National Healthcare.

Look..those who have money,or good paying jobs now pay out of pocket,or through an HMO.

Those living on SS can get Medicare.

Poor people can get Medicaid,and Charity Care ( for hospital stays and lab work) through the state.

My state has PAAD...a program to pay for medicine for the aged and disabled.
If you meet ths income guidelines ,your meds only cost yo $5..the state and the Medicare Presription Plan picks up the rest.

This man is pretending to be knowlegable about a subject he knows nothing about.

Stefan · Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:10 pm

I don't know the details of your health plans and your system. But I do know that the debate on how to FIX your system goes on and on and on. Unlike in Europe and Canada where debates are about how to improve the system, not how to fix it or replace it. Sicko will engage people regardless of what you two are saying. Moore knows how to start a fire. But I'm sure the interview is amusing (I can't watch it right now, I'm at work).

MaineMan · Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:34 pm

I think Moore is a total fraud. He acts like a socialist, but is super-rich from being a capitalist. It was also priceless in that video where he criticized CNN for their advertisers (oh yeah, those EVIL corporations!) and Wolf points out that one current ad on CNN is for Moore's film "Sicko!" I guess he has no problem with that one, lol! Plus, as Homer mentioned, Moore getting upset over strategic editing or not telling the whole truth is beyond laughable. Pot meet kettle!

As far as healthcare goes, we have the best in the world so in my opinion I certainly don't want radical change. Improvements? Absolutely, but I would never endorse govt. run healthcare. Canadians come here in droves for surgical procedures and various health care options so I don’t think their system is all that great.

One last note, Moore's ability to "start fires" as you say seems to have diminished a great deal since F-9/11. That film was an astronomical success but "Sicko" is not doing nearly as well at the box office. I think when F-9/11's stated goal of unseating Bush (Moore himself said that was the goal of the film) failed he lost a lot of clout. Not to mention many in the media have wised up to his hyperbole-laden, fact-fudging style of filmmaking and have reported about it often.

homerskid · Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:23 pm

I just read a few reviews,and they are not great.
Even the French are leary of him after learning the truth about his F 911 Documentary...they don't come out and say that he is a liar (we know he is) but they accuse him of omitting many truths to put forth propaganda in his films.

One other reviewer,a lefty says he likes Moore as a liberal,but does not respect him as a journalist.
Then there is the guy who refuses to call Moores work a documentary .

He refers to Moores stuff as Informational Entertainment...lol

Guess he should do the right thing and give that Oscar back,if its for a documentary...lol :oops:

The Shadow · Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:28 pm

My only concern with the Canadian plan is that private health insurance is not an option.

Stefan · Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:15 pm

"As far as healthcare goes, we have the best in the world so in my opinion I certainly don't want radical change. Improvements? Absolutely, but I would never endorse govt. run healthcare. Canadians come here in droves for surgical procedures and various health care options so I don’t think their system is all that great."

You don't have the best system in the world, that is a fact. WHO has measured the quality of health care systems in the world, based on the general health of the population, access, patient satisfaction and how the care's paid for. You rank 37 on that list. That's abysmal for a country that spends as much money on health care as you do. Where does the money go? Profit and administrative costs. If Canadians come to you in droves it's possibly because you have more specialists in your country than Canada, and because those Americans that do get health care are very satisfied with it. And I also think those 50 million Americans who are uninsured disagree with you. These numbers and facts are all in Sicko and have been verified by CNN who did some fact-checking. They also criticized Moore for ignoring the downsides to Canadian, French, etc health care, which is probably fair (I haven't seen the film).

"One last note, Moore's ability to "start fires" as you say seems to have diminished a great deal since F-9/11. That film was an astronomical success but "Sicko" is not doing nearly as well at the box office. I think when F-9/11's stated goal of unseating Bush (Moore himself said that was the goal of the film) failed he lost a lot of clout. Not to mention many in the media have wised up to his hyperbole-laden, fact-fudging style of filmmaking and have reported about it often."

Sure, I don't think Moore has been overwhelmingly influential, but I think Fahrenehit 911 has played a certain part, and will continue to do so now that so many Americans have begun to realize what the Bush administration has done. At least Moore has mattered a lot more than the Wicked Witch of the Right (you know who).

Stefan · Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:24 pm

Shadow, this article says private health care options are legal in Canada, but the laws are written to work against that kind of two-tier system. I definitely think that will change; this is a discussion that goes on every other country that guarantees its citizens health care. No one wants to abandon that system, but it probably will have to be reformed to allow for private options in order to ease the financial burden on the system.

http://www.news.utoronto.ca/bin1/010322d.asp

Stefan · Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:31 pm

Homer, I don't know which critics you read, but the film is in fact getting very favorable reviews. Rotten Tomatoes, which sums up the opinions of America's major film critics, gives it a 91% rating. Sounds like what you accuse Moore of is actually how you operate.... :lol:

Beth · Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:34 pm

I actually worked in the health insurance industry. And I currently receive medical coverage through the military which is comprehensive (full coverage including dental).

Several years ago I had to undergo major surgery. I had to have a colon re-section which included the removal of part of my lower intestine. Modern medicine dicatates laporoscopy as an industry standard for this procedure. Only in very extenuating circumstances do they actually cut a full-on diagonal open incision. And only after they have attempted laporoscopy when there is no other option. Occasionally they will do a full open incision in the case of emergency surgery when it is a matter of life and death.

After I had a successful surgery, I was talking to a friend in Germany who mentioned that his friend was going to have the same surgery the following month. Only he was have the full incision operation. I asked why he was not having the laporoscopy. I didn't understand because the other operation is much more dangerous, much more invasive, much more expensive, much more painful, has a longer recuperative time and is out of date by about ten years. He told his friend to check with his doctor. His friend came back and told him that the doctor informed him that they didn't that type of operation. I was flabergasted. They were doing an out-of-date, high-risk procedure because, I can only imagine they simply couldn't afford the equipment or couldn't afford to learn the new technique. There is no other explanation for what the doctor told the friend.

So Moore going on national television and telling the American people that European healthcare is better than American healthcare is just lunacy. I got state-of-the-art medical treatment and it wasn't even the best that I could have gotten in this country. Shadow is right, he does not have any clue as to what he is talking about. They do need to make changes in how insurance companies are allowed to do business, but he isn't lighting any fires that weren't lit 20 years ago. This guy is just some tool who latches on to a cause and then does whatever he can to make as much money as he can picking the meat off of the bones. Down in the south we call that a carpetbagger.

homerskid · Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:44 pm

I can't accurately comment on the quality of care in other countries ,I have only been in the hospital once outside of the states,and that was in Germany in 1962,it was staffed with military doctors.

I have read/heard some real horror stories about the "systems" in Canada and England.

Long waiting lists for heart or liver transplant,even routine surgery could have a long waiting list.

Doctors in this country are cionsidered professionals,as well they should be with all that education and internship.

They are well paid and can become very weathy in the specialized fields.

From what I have read that is not the case in England and Canada.

Its just a job there,and nobody gets rich...there is no private sector. Is that true?

SICKO REVIEW:

http://www.plume-noire.com/movies/reviews/sicko.html

Since winning a Palme d'Or for his scathing anti-Bush attack, a mixture of feverish expectation and circumspect mistrust hangs over the work of Michael Moore. Presented out of competition at the 60th Festival of Cannes, Sicko takes on Uncle Sam's health system, forcing comparisons between the services proposed in different countries, including England, Cuba and France.

And if it were still necessary to dissect the director's demonstration system, a.k.a. The Moore Method, all things considered, it's in the section shot in Paris where one clearly realizes, once and for all, at which point Moore's films raise even more as propaganda rather than as documentaries. Where the art of not lying, but to serve a speech, a proposition, a point of view, by truncating information, by omitting certain truths to deliver general information which the audience will take as fact. So we must point out to Mr. Moore that, with all due respect to these idyllic shots of couples locked in embrace in Parisian parks, that the right to higher education, although less expensive than in the United States, must still be paid for, that a couple earning 8 000 € and living in a large Parisian apartment does not represent the majority of most of the capital's inhabitants, that to strike is a right but that the popular momentum in the streets does not become Woodstock, that doctors can make home visits in the middle of the night, but that the trip will cost you...

This demonstration of incomplete information counts on the audience's ignorance. Moore uses other means to convince: reasoning by absurdity. Thus we learn that the only place in the United States where high tech medical care is delivered free is at the prison in Guantanamo. Manipulating the witnesses he meets throughout his ersatz of a documentary, here our troublemaker charters three boats to take his new friends who have been forsaken by insurance companies on board towards the military base, to which they will naturally not have access. So as usual, Moore takes his public hostage, aiming at emotion, lightness and humor. An overused, dangerous method, but where one wonders about honesty.

Moland Fengkov
Translated into English by Anji Milanovic

http://www.unsoughtinput.com/index.php/2007/07/02/movie-review-sicko

snip:

As a lefty liberal, I like Michael Moore. As a journalist (I have more creds than just a blog, I swear), not so much. Lucky for me he’s making movies for the masses and not writing for The Washington Post. Otherwise, he’d have been shut down years ago. Instead, we can enjoy his films for what they are - films that while maybe not full of “truthiness” will make people talk and think.

http://www.mtv.com/movies/news/articles/1563758/story.jhtml

snip:

Unfortunately, Moore is also a con man of a very brazen sort, and never more so than in this film. His cherry-picked facts, manipulative interviews (with lingering close-ups of distraught people breaking down in tears) and blithe assertions (how does he know 18,000* people will die this year because they have no health insurance?) are so stacked that you can feel his whole argument sliding sideways as the picture unspools. The American health-care system is in urgent need of reform, no question. Some 47 million people are uninsured (although many are only temporarily so, being either in-between jobs or young enough not to feel a pressing need to buy health insurance). There are a number of proposals as to what might be done to correct this situation. Moore has no use for any of them, save one.

et.,etc.,etc..

Stefan · Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:59 pm

It's not lunacy. Moore is not talking about specific procedures, he's talking about the system as a whole, for every citizen, not just people like us on this board, and how to fix it. And, yes, he's also avoiding talking about the negative parts of the other system, unfortunately.

Stefan · Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:11 pm

Long waiting lists is a problem, yes. But that's no excuse for us to give up on our system. Long waiting lists can be shortened with the help of private initiatives. And they do exist, in Sweden as well as Britain. The former Social Democratic government in my country doesn't like it, but I certainly support it. And they're doing well. I'm not sure what the former Blair government did about it in Britain, but private health care does exist there. They do however have problems in the NHS, the National Health Service, with many unhappy nurses and doctors, but I haven't really looked into what that is all about. Public health care is not perfect in Sweden either of course; my mom is a nurse who retired a few months ago, partly because she was fed up with how the hospital was run (on the other hand I'm not sure if that has anything to do with the system itself).

Thank you for those reviews, Homer. But there was no need for the etc, etc, etc. in the end, because you're not likely to find many other negative reviews. For every three reviews you post I can find 12 others that are positive. :D

Check it out:

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/sicko/

Stefan · Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:22 pm

Beth, I googled laporoscopy in Sweden and learned that it's performed frequently in my country in cases of colon cancer. A comparison between the two procedures you're describing were made in a 1998 study in Sweden, but the report had too little to go on to reach a conclusion. Don't know if it's done in Germany these days, but would be surprised if it's not. You said this was several years ago, so maybe there's something else we're behind on. I don't know. America is doing very well in research and I think Europe is lagging a bit there. Don't have any numbers though.

Beth · Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:26 am

I'm not talking about colon cancer. I had the surgery at the beginning of the gulf war. At that time my mother had undergone the same sugery ten years prior only she had the full incision surgery which requires a colostomy bag and an additional surgery later to re-attach the colon. When I asked my doctor about the surgery I assumed I would be having that procedure. He laughed and said that they didn't do that sort of thing anymore. They only did that under certain circumstances. As if it were almost barbaric or archaic or something.

That is the surgery the German doctor performed on my friend's friend. And this was after I had my procedure. So I don't know what to tell you. That's not the only example I have. I have been to other countries and seen other hospitals where the care did not even come close to the care one would receive in America. Hell, even Gweneth Paltrow, who just raves about England decided her baby's health was important enough to make sure she gave birth in an American hospital.

And as far as the insurance industry is concerned, Michael Moore is not doing anything that was not done 20 years ago. I was a part of the industry before I was in the military Stefan. I know. I was there. The only thing he is doing is distorting facts, which is his usual MO. He is no different than Ann Coulter or any of those other jerkoffs who are destroying this country by spewing vitriol in order to make a buck. He is a parasite.